In this sometimes crazy digital world, dating is more daring for everyone. Breadcrumb Dating is a real thing, and you want to avoid it!
If you've ever been in a toxic relationship, you are likely to be afraid of dating these days.
Who can I trust?
Can I trust myself to choose a healthy relationship?
Breadcrumb dating is what you likely fear the most because it will mimic the emotional abuse you have already experienced. Do you know what "breadcrumb dating" actually is? An experience you don't want! Today we talk about recognizing these patterns and possibilities just in case you run into them. So then you can run away!
HIGHLIGHTS OF THIS EPISODE:
- What is "breadcrumb dating?"
- What does breadcrumb dating have to do with attachment styles?
- Hear Tracy Crossley's story
- How breadcrumb dating triggers fear of abandonment
- Why sex is not emotional intimacy
- How you can stop doing things that make you feel bad
- Learning to be honest and vulnerable without punishing yourself
- What is an "insecure attachment" and how does it look in relationship?
Tracy is a Behavioral Relationship Expert and Podcast Host who works with individuals to help transform their dating habits by breaking unhealthy cycles of dating. With a background in psychology, an innate emotional intuition, and drawing from her own personal experience, Tracy helps her clients break the patterns that keep them trapped in the repetition of unhealthy singlehood and relationships.
Learn more at TracyCrossley.com
What an incredible confusing world if you happen to be in the dating world. And what makes it even worse is maybe you've been betrayed. Maybe you've been betrayed by your parents, your last relationship, somebody significant to you. You don't trust yourself. You don't trust other people you don't know what to do. We're dealing in a digital world where we have breadcrumb trails and people ghosting us and doing all kinds of strange things. And then you might find yourself being 50 or 60 years old in that situation. So we're going to talk today with somebody who really understands all this is Tracy Crossley. And I am so excited so stay tuned.
Well, the reason I'm so excited about talking to you is I love to talk about attachment. And people think oh, yeah, that's a really heady thing. It's theoretical. It's all of this read the books and you fall asleep. But the thing is, it's so basic to who we are as human beings and how we function, how we function on how we think about ourselves, and how we function in relationship to other humans. So we're going to talk about that we're going to talk about her term situation ship. And we're going to have a great conversation. So I always ask this question off the top. Tracy, why do you do what you do?
Oh, that's such a great question. I did not start off wanting to do this. Although I always had as many people who come to me actually an interest in psychology. And it was basically so I could figure myself out. I could never figure out why I was anxious. But yet, I was very avoidant of intimacy, intimacy, meaning emotional intimacy. And so one of the things that happened was I read a book and this book at the time I was single, and I read this book and it talked about other books and I'm One of those people that I will write down other books in a book. So I wrote down this book, and I picked it up and it was called "calling in the one". And I thought, Okay, this is going to help me to finally get my relationships, right. And, and it it really, I mean, it brought somebody else in, but I was in the same kind of situation. So I ended up meeting the author of the book, because I was so interested in trying to fix myself and ended up working with her and her partner, and from there, went through their coaching training, which I did not want to do, because I thought, how am I going to ever make a living as a coach, and that's pretty much what started the path and then getting into the attachment part. That was really my own research and understanding myself and then getting to a point of being able to break down the patterns and the beliefs that support thing you know, support anything Around attachment where, you know, the fear of abandonment, fear of not being good enough, and being in a state of reaction all the time to those kind of fears. And so for me, I stopped working hard at love. And I learned how to basically change that. So that's the really long into the short.
But it's important information because everybody's growing. And if you're tuned into this, you're looking for information, you're looking for a pathway, you're looking for a change. So we want to know how other people did it. You know, people always ask me that when I'm on their podcasts and why do I talk about high jackals the toxic, difficult people in life, I was raised by them. But I wanted a way out too. So I'm always interested in that. So let's just go back for a moment talk a little bit more calling in the one I don't hear about it so often as we used to, and but there is this whole idea of bringing someone who could love you Which is wonderful, but toxic people show up as wonderful when you meet them too. And so you may call them in, but then maybe you want to send them out again.
Right? Yes. Well, that's one thing, you know, when it comes to the relationships, but for me, it was also establishing my own part in it and my own toxicity and instead of labeling someone else, it was what am I doing? How am I showing up? And that was the grounds for I would call it it was cut kind of a breakthrough because it was a moment of recognition, but even in the moment of recognition, it was okay, now what now? What do I do? Right?
Well, I think that brings up a big point, you know, the M, which is one of the reasons I mean, my listeners know about hijack was put, I'll just put this in here. It's one of the reasons that it becomes so important to have a term like high jackals because when I trademarked that term It was because so many people were going to the Internet, and they were saying what was going on in their relationship? And they had the internet confused with a mental health professional. So the internet would say, narcissist, sociopath, passive aggressive borderline, and then they would go, Oh, you have a problem. And I wanted people to realize that we have a problem, because we're attracted to each other we are in this relationship, the dynamics here are serving us in some way. So then maybe the starting point is to look at yourself. So it sounds like you got to that point to as the the basic place where you really have to focus and is that what got you into looking at attachment.
So I this is over 10 years ago, I guess it was about 11 years ago was right after I started coaching. I was in the dysfunctional relationship that I called in. And I or I should call it a situation ship because it was never really a committed Did relationship. So the deal is I kept being in a situation which was a yo yo relationship where it's on, it's off, it's on, it's off. And one day, I was walking down the street, and I was thinking to myself, I feel really good because I feel like I'm over this person. I said this a lot, by the way, every time that, you know, he was gone, I would do that. And he came back. And I remember, because I received a text message from him. And I remember the feelings because the feelings were all there and I recognized it. And before that I hadn't really recognized. Oh, wow, I feel the same way. Every time this guy shows back up. My feelings haven't changed. No matter how long we've not talked to each other. No matter how I've gone no contact or what have you. None of that worked. And in that moment, I stood on the street, and I went, Oh my God. This is about me, I keep feeling the same way, no matter if this guy's in my life or out of my life, I have the issue. And I decided at that moment that I was going to commit to being emotionally in this place until I had clarity and resolution, I wasn't going to break up with him again, I wasn't going to do the no contact, it wasn't going to play games, which was really difficult, because I didn't realize that these were patterns of trying to avoid certain emotions in myself. So when I did that, it was it was big, because my inclination was always to get rid of him. And
yeah, well, let's stop and talk about that for a second. Because that is, I think, really common and you've just given everybody a moment to go, oh, maybe I do that. Maybe that's what I'm up to here. And that may be a big moment for folks. So everybody take a big breath here. If you just finally realized not about them You're the one who's having the same experience over and over again. So maybe you could take a big breath, take a step back, have a look in the mirror and say, what's up with me? What's important to me? So what do you think the first things are Tracy that people should ask questions about when they take that breath?
Well, first of all, you have to look at Yes, you are making the choice to be there. And so I had to take responsibility for the choice. He wasn't forcing me. He wasn't making me show up or decide, okay, I'm going to date you again. He also wasn't forcing me to push them out of my life, either. I was, it was me and my feelings. And of course, this was not my first attached relationship, by the way. So I had my marriage and in between my marriage and I married again, but in this in between time, I had quite a few of these kinds of relationships. But this was the more intense and this was the one where I actually got that clue. Wait a minute, it's me. And there was a lot that went into that because a lot of us don't take responsibility. We look at the other person and we point the finger and we go, No, they're wrong. They're bad. They're not doing this, right. And the problem with not taking responsibility is you can't become empowered. You stay a victim. And I felt like a victim. I felt like a huge victim because I realized I was always focusing on him. So trying to get the focus back to me, was huge. It's very difficult to do when you're not used to doing it. Most people think that they focus on themselves, but they really don't we focused on a reaction to another person, okay, I'm reacting to what they're doing or not doing or what they're saying or not saying, but I am not checked into my own feelings. And what is driving my behavior?
Hmm. Well, this is something that if people are just hearing this, you know, these are big steps. These are big realizations, like Maybe there's a possibility that I could do things differently. And maybe the beginning of that possibility is that I could look to see what patterns have created the way that I view myself and relationships. And those patterns may not have been healthy. And the result is that I have this particular mindset. And I have this set of feelings and I also have these needs, and hey, they can change.
And they do change. You know, one of the things that I noticed, as I became healthier was my attachment to this person started to become less and less, you know, the intimacy, the sexual intimacy, and this is a lot of the people who are drawn to my work and myself. That was the place that we could do that right. Oh, I can have sex and that's some kind of intimacy but emotional intimacy, forget it can't do that. I didn't realize that though. I in my fantasy of who I thought I was. I lived there. So there was many steps that I had to take. But first was putting the focus on me took a lot of not just every day going, I need to focus on myself but even recognizing what I was focusing on with myself, I didn't even know.
Hmm. Well, you know, what brings up for me and I love your take on this is we allow sex to make us feel close, which is not emotional intimacy, we get that kind of confused, don't we? That if that person wants to pull us closer to them or wants to be sexually involved with us or wants to appear to be courting us, then we confuse that with actual emotional intimacy, emotional availability, interest in us, I mean, as humans as opposed to somebody that would be nice to sleep with or maybe hang out with for a while or in the case of hijack. We'll see what I can get out of them. Because you know so frequently is said, there's nobody who falls in love faster than a hijacker who has no job or no place to live. Right, right. So they're going to be masquerading as closest. And if we have insecure attachments from our early life, then that masquerade is something we will jump in and play with, because we recognize that even though it's a love bombing situation, in most many cases, we will think about all they want me they want me close to them. And we are developing a bond but a bond isn't based on sex, is it?
Now it's not. And the other thing is, it's not based on an illusion. And a lot of times when you have attachment, insecure attachment, you are in a state of illusion. You're in a state of building a fantasy you are from the beginning doing that. I came up with a term called breadcrumbed dating. I had written an article I guess it was about five years ago, talking about this where as children We're used to getting bread crumbs of attention, we're taught, this is how you get love, be perfect people, please do you know, do these different, let's say patterns of behavior that gets you either a reward or punishment, and therefore we carry these forward to our adult relationships. And the problem is that most of us don't realize on the fantasy level, we have the whole fairy tale going on about what love looks like, and that closeness and that bond. But in reality, we don't make choices to have people in our lives where we're going to have that. And so what ends up happening is, we think there's something wrong with us. And at the same time, we accept bread crumbs. So and to me bread crumbing is where and this is something I experienced many times where you meet someone you feel that he would say, that intensity, that Ooh, I have an attraction here. Oh, there's chemistry. And they give you some breadcrumbs of attention. You think this is going somewhere, and then they start to do a fade out, you know, they start to fade away, you start wondering, oh, wait a minute, something's different here because you're so attuned to the other person you're so in tune to, are they going to call it the in a text? And then when something changes, you're hypersensitive to it. And so you contact them, maybe you go, oh, what's going you know, what's going on? Is everything okay? And they go, Oh, yeah, everything's fine. But then they continue to fade out, they fade away, and then they come back. And that's the problem is that we're attached more attached to the fairy tale. We think, Oh, this is my soulmate. He's coming back. She's coming back. I deal with this all day long. This is the work I do because I was also in that at one time. So we have a lot of from our childhood of getting breadcrumbs and bringing that forward. We that's what we're used to. That's what our subconscious knows. So even though we have the fairy tale This close bond, we don't know how to do it. I didn't know how to do it. I had to learn how to do it. Right.
Well, such good points, you know, this whole idea of bread crumbing we look at people who are raised in toxic homes. Well, the way that they get their bread crumbs, and just for everybody listening because I know there's something Tracy knows something about is that if you have a hijacker parent, toxic parent, you're only going to get validation for when you make them look good. So that's when you get fed. That's when you get the breadcrumbs. You don't get enough to survive, but you get enough to keep going back to the source hoping you're going to get more. And then when we get a little older, and we're in the dating world, we take that with us. So what do people do about that? Tracy? What went if they're all sitting home right now going? Oh, yeah, that's how it was at my house. And I'm looking around thinking, you know, I've been trying My phone over 10 times to see if he or she is going to call today. How are those two things related?
Well, I mean, they're related in terms of you have put your emotional state on another person, they are responsible for your emotional state, right? If you get the text message, you get the phone call if you don't, what mood Are you in? Right? So I look at it and and to me, I mean, there's so many different ways I can go with this question. But I look at it from the perspective of if my whole emotional state is tied up in somebody else and what they do and what they say. I need to be sure I'm not going to play a game with that either. A lot of us do, okay. Oh, he didn't text me at three o'clock. Like he said he would
right or I'm going to ignore him. Now. I'm not going to when he he contacts me, and what that does is it gives you anxiety, it makes you feel bad. You have Stop doing things that make you feel bad. So by your own actions, right, and it doesn't work anyways, I think a lot of us we get into, if I can create a sense of abandonment in the other person, then they're going to cling to me. But it doesn't work. Because it's short term, even if it does for a day, it's not going to work longer than that. And by the way, relationships are about love. Not about having somebody be with you out of fear, right?
Well, you're not about power. And that's the whole dynamic here. Okay, if I think that, okay, you didn't call me at three o'clock. And now I'm not going to talk to you when you call. I mean, we're stuck in an emotional space of somewhere between three and nine years old at that moment, like, I'm going to take my toys and go home, and and then you're going to, you're going to care. Well, no, I'm going to go get new toys or I'm not going to care. But if we have it happening on both sides, the person now doesn't have power over you because you're not speaking to them and then you get love bombed. And they'll come back and they'll say, Well, I got to collect myself. Supply here. I gotta make sure I have you on the hook and I'll give you the breadcrumbs to make you feel like oh, we're okay. It's all fine. And then if that other person is happens to be a high jackal nature, they're going to go off and say, okay, that one's appeased. Let me go off and do whatever I want. Still got the supply. This is all good. So when we're in a more functional relationships and those with high jackals I think we need to really talk about how what you just said, plays out, like where did we get the idea that abandoning somebody deciding not to answer their call because we're being petulant is going to get us what we want. Where do you think we get that notion?
society? We see it in society. We see it in our families, you know, we're great observers of our parents, their models for us growing up. So we look at their behavior, we watch how and whether we want to or not, by the way, we do incorporate some of their ways of being hating. And yeah, and so if you had a parent that punish the other parent, whenever they didn't do what the parent wanted, guess what you may feel that that's a way to get love as well to get your way to, as you said, have power,
while the parent may have treated you that way to do what makes me happy, and I'll look at you and smile at you and maybe sit down with you for five minutes. And I will give you that little bit of what you want in order to keep you hooked. This is what I call being hooked on Hope you're hooked on hope that the other person will notice you they will care more about you they will care like you do that the bread crumbs as you say that they're giving you actually will turn into a meal and you'll sit down and eat together forever. But the actual fact is no, they're always moving and the bread crumbs are always there. So what happens if you're in a relatively healthy relationship, but we've got a little of this insecure attachment or maybe anxious attachment going on? Maybe even avoidant. And you want to face it straight on after you've looked in the mirror. And you've asked yourself those questions. What do you do about the relationship? What is your suggestion that the you bring up the topic and how?
Well there's a few different things. One, I always tell people don't break up with people until you are emotionally clear. Because otherwise, you're just bringing your emotional baggage to the next relationship, or you're waiting for that person to come back or get it together. Maybe you're waiting for them to have a brick fall on their head and they're going to change or some other fantasy. The thing is, is that to be in a semi healthy relationship, where you still have some of this going on, what you have to be as honest and vulnerable. The same thing basically, and most of us are afraid of vulnerability, like going back to the example of somebody not returning your call at three. Maybe they call you at five instead, and you ignore them. You're punishing yourself Self and you have to recognize that if you want to have a loving, not a fearful or power, you know, struggle relationship, you have to be love. Okay? So to be love in that situation would be, if I'm waiting to hear from somebody, and I don't hear from them, and I want to talk to them, I'm going to call them, I'm not going to do the power struggle. And it's simple things like that. But that can provoke a lot of anxiety that can make you feel out of control. It can make you feel like you're losing something, but what you're really losing is illusion that you have control in the first place. So you want to take those kinds of steps where you step into being an adult, because that's emotional. You know, that's relational, excuse me, that is adult behavior that's in being an emotional adult. So instead of emotionally, a child who is not got a clue and it's just in a state of reaction, you are taking action, because that's action that's deciding. I have feelings. Want to express them. And it's not that you need to make the other person wrong or bad, because that's another power struggle. This isn't about you being right, the other person wrong or vice versa, it's really about communicating with them and communicating in a way that expresses vulnerably your feelings, right? And you have to keep stepping into that no matter what the relationship is. Because again, you don't want to look to the other person for validation. And this is important because I, you know, I could diagnose everybody I was with and who the heck knows, you know, it's it was for me more about developing the courage which created confidence, which created value in me that I didn't have by speaking to what I was feeling whether the person wanted to hear it or not, and that was big, because I, first of all, had to figure out what are my feelings like, what are my real feelings? Not what am i reacting to with this person, but what do I actually feel So, you've got to sit there, and you've got to be able to feel your feelings.
And I want to say something just in the middle there where you're saying all those wonderful things. I just wanted to say that if you're in a group of friends, who don't understand what Tracy just said, and you begin to understand that, don't go to those friends for advice, because there can be a whole lot of that kind of thing. Well, Who does he think he is not calling it five when he's supposed to? Isn't he punctual Isn't he does, you know, or she, and and then the question comes up for me all the time. People are always asking in the Facebook groups or in my membership program, they'll say, Well, you know, I've moved away from my hijack called toxic mother. And now I get in a message to say that she's ill, what do I do? And I always say, Who are you? And they say, What do you mean? say, well, who are you? Are you a person who is clear that you know, it's hard Society exists and you don't do well in that relationship. So are you a person without regrets that could, you know not not speak to your mother and not find out what's going on? Or are you a person who needs to find out and then detach again, you know, who are you? How do you behave? And I hear you saying that same thing. Like find out who you are, because there'll be a lots of cheerleaders and, and flying monkeys around going. No, you show him don't you talk to him? He didn't call you when he's supposed to. And if you've got friends like that, let them go play together. Right?
Yeah, that's so much pressure. And when you have anxiety already, that can make the bottom feel like it's falling out. When you have no support around you for just being in the relationship and saying, You know what, I get that there's something going on with you and that you're attached and that's okay. You know what be where you are because pushing people out of that. doesn't help. It's like telling an alcoholic, Hey, stop drinking. You've got to work on yourself to be able to get to a point of stopping drinking or stopping any behavior. So I'm always about because I tell the same thing to my clients. I'm like, do not get advice from other people, because you're always going to feel like you're wrong.
Mm hmm. You know, and, you know, in the case of hijackers, they have flying monkeys. And so to codependents they have flying monkeys who keep them codependent. And so then we have this additional pieces going on, you know, there's a, you know, books written about the narcissism epidemic. So then we get this entitlement piece. Well, you know, it's almost as though the he in our scenario of calling it three o'clock is not allowed to have a life and we don't have any trust in that person. That's something happened at three o'clock that if I trusted them, I would know that they would have called if they could have called but something happened or trust that they will explain it later on. Hola I get my righteous little, little lamb situation going on to say no, who do you think you are treating me that way. And there's no way in this situation now there is no potential for creating a we,
there is none. And the problem with that too, like what you were saying, you don't know what that person's doing. Most of the time, we really don't know our partner in that way. We have, again, an illusion of who we think this person is, based on our perception of let's say they check off certain things on a checklist. Oh, that's what he or she is all about, because I work with everybody. And I find that there were women that do this as well to men and women to women and men to men. So it to me it's we're walking around with a checklist and you're supposed to be this person and we have no interest and actually knowing them on a deeper level, knowing what is it that makes them tick, who are they like And a healthy relationship, you want to know that you want to know fully who you're with?
Yeah. Well, I say this about any relationship to be healthy needs three things that needs equality, reciprocity and mutuality, no matter which one it is with your parent, your sibling, your boss, your co workers and your lover. I mean, they needs equality, reciprocity and mutuality. Those are the things to work on. If those aren't there, is going nowhere. You know, I've written lots of books about these things. And it's important for us to realize that it's not all about you calm, there's another person there to lean in and say, you know, tell me about what went on at three o'clock I really want to learn about you I thought about blame, I want to understand and so that, you know, I could deal with my own stuff. I got a little anxious, and I don't, I just want to tell you, I got a little anxious so that you know what that that does and and let's talk about it. We can become emotionally intimate in that way. But as a human being doing what you're talking about Tracy, we can help people develop emotional maturity. And it's an emotional immaturity to be it's three o'clock, why are you calling me? You know, because that falls in when you're with the toxic people that falls into the world of what I call emotional surveillance. I want to know where you are, I want to know what you're doing. And you need to tell me every second and if you are not doing everything that I want you to do and you're keeping me secure, then that's your problem. And that's your job. You're supposed to keep me emotionally secure.
Well, I think also to add to that and what you were saying before, one of the things that is very important, it's when you're actually sharing with somebody, I was a little anxious I was feeling this way is not to put it on them to fix you either. It is not their job, because if you make somebody have a job and healthy relationship, then you're going to end up having walls between each other, because you want to people that are open and available and to add to the things that have to be in a healthy relationship when you are dating, okay, how do you know that you're in an in securely attached situation is inconsistent, and it does not progress. There is no commitment. So if you are in a situation ship, right, you're dating and then this isn't a relationship to and it stagnated. You could be doing the same thing for 10 years with somebody, and it's still in the same place that was in the first month or two of dating, or in the first week of dating, meet, not the highs of dating, by the way, but you're in that inconsistent. They don't call when they say they're going to call the words and actions don't match. And that's you too. And that's the other thing. A lot of times when you're upset that somebody let's say didn't call you at three o'clock, you're not looking at your own behavior. Are you consistent all the time? Or are you eating consistent, a lot of us are inconsistent, especially when we're busy punishing the other person. If, yeah, and if you have a relationship that's not progressing, like it's not moving toward commitment and the person isn't open and talking, like I am remarried, and my husband was very vocal, the whole time I was dating. I never worried about anything. He was always very, very much about letting me know where he was at. He was always consistent, and I mean, always consistent. Because that is who he is. He still is. And so I wasn't used to that, by the way. That was something new, but I was consistent. I had to stop any inconsistent behavior, which goes back to Oh, you You're late in calling me Well, I'm going to ignore you or I'm going to play like I'm five years old or you know, pick up my toys and go home kind of thing like you said, so. Yes.
Let's say again, the three things because you said inconsistency. It's not progressing. What was the third thing?
commitment? Our commitment?
and tested big deal. Yeah, well, commitment isn't just oh, we are boyfriend, girlfriend. We are married. commitment is, and this is for both parties. I have both feet in. Most people have one foot in and one foot out and I don't care if you're married. I don't care if you're in a relationship and your boyfriend girlfriend, you have to have both feet in if you don't go ahead.
That's so interesting because in my book Kaizen for couples, I describe what I call the Hokey Pokey relationship. You've got one foot in and one foot out, and that's what it's all about. And
I've never heard it described that way, but that's perfect.
Yeah, well, so we're talking about the same thing here that when you have a commitment is not just you know, I'm going to be yours forever. A commitment is something that you personally make decisions about not to But you personally decide to be a committed human and to embody the behaviors of a committed person. And and the thoughts of a committed person and the perception of mindset of a committed person, which is absolutely huge. You know, I think we could talk forever. But we I think we given people a whole lot to think about, I want you to know, this is Tracy Crossley. And you can find her at Tracy crossly, calm, and I'm going to spell that for you because that could be very confusing. So Tracy with no eat, tr ACY Crossley with two s's Anthony. So cr OSSL uy, Tracy crossly.com. You're going to want to look at her books, listen to our podcast because if you're interested in attachment, she has one just all about that. I am hoping to have you come back and be my guest on save your sanity because I want to have a really in depth conversation about Those issues and anything else that you would like people to know for sure that maybe we haven't covered Tracy,
I feel like we've covered quite a bit, I would just say, the biggest key to all of this is to learn how to trust yourself. And when you do, you are emotionally available, and you are somebody who can be emotionally intimate. And the ways to do that, obviously, are to stop doing the things which stand in the way that cause you pain of your own actions.
So good to talk with you so much more and like I like to have my guests back. So hopefully we'll do that. And maybe you'll join me on save your sanity and we'll talk in depth about these issues of insecure attachment in particular. So my guest again is Tracy Crosby. You'll find her at Tracy no II Crossley, two s's and any Tracy crossly, calm. You can always find me at transforming relationship or on my YouTube channel. At For fo our relationship help hvlp that's my channel for relationship help. And until we talk again, take really good care of yourself. Do you know why? Because you matter, talk soon.
I'm so glad you spent this time with me today. I hope you heard something that touched your heart and empowered you to move forward. You can have the life and relationships that you most want and that begins with you within you today. I'm always here for you. Life can get better. And you heard that from me the relationship help doctor I'm Roberta shader and I work with clients throughout the world through video conferencing. We can talk so learn more at for relationship help calm fo our relationship he LP calm, or visit me on youtube at for relationship help. Join me for next week's show.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai