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There's so much information online and in the media right now about the coronavirus!

How do you know what to believe? How do you know what to do to stay safe and healthy in the face of coronavirus?

My guest today, Dr. Dave Vigerust, is a long-time infectious disease and preventative medicine specialist. I'm talking with him because you may well be cooped up with someone who is toxic, pushing your buttons for the sheer joy of having power over you. Or, you may be cooped up with children who are bored and not wanting to listen? Or, other humans who don't seem to want to keep everyone safe.

Dr. Vigerust has the accurate information, the scientific information about this coronavirus and other epidemics in recent memory. This one moves faster! That's why it's so important to listen to someone like Dr. Vigerust to get accurate information.

Be informed about the coronavirus, and how the coronavirus spreads. That way, you can do your part to stop it.

And, if you're cooped up with a toxic person, this episode will give you accurate information to share. Maybe, just maybe, the #Hijackal will listen because s/he wants to live, too!

HIGHLIGHTS OF TODAY'S EPISODE:

  • How much fear is appropriate about coronavirus?
  • What are the real facts?
  • What's the difference between an epidemic, an outbreak, and a pandemic?
  • How fast is coronavirus spreading and what speeds it up?
  • What precautions are imperative right now?
  • How long does the virus stay on surfaces?
  • What is your best practice for when you need to go to get groceries?
  • How does this compare with other viruses like SARS and H1N1?
  • How to stay safe and healthy.

 

About Dr. Vigerust:

coronavirusDave Vigerust, MS., Ph.D. received a bachelor’s degree in Biology and Chemistry from the University of Texas at El Paso, a master’s degree in Microbiology and Immunology from Texas Tech University and a Doctorate in Cellular and Molecular Pathology from Vanderbilt University School of Medicine. Dr. Vigerust conducted post-doctoral research at St. Jude Children's Research Hospital. Dr. Vigerust completed a second post-doctoral fellowship at Vanderbilt University Medical School in the Department of Pediatrics Disease in the area of molecular biology. Currently, Dr. Vigerust is completing a second master’s degree in Molecular Diagnostics from Arizona State University.

Dr. Vigerust was a faculty member in the Pathology, Immunology and Microbiology Department at Vanderbilt University School of Medicine and a Health Research Scientist in the U.S. Department of Veteran’s Affairs. Most recently, Dr. Vigerust is the Chief Scientific Officer and molecular scientist for a diagnostics laboratory focused around precision medicine, genomics and infectious disease. Dr. Vigerust has published extensively in top tier international journals, presented his research at national and international conferences and is an active editor and reviewer for several prominent journals. Dr. Vigerust has developed several novel molecular diagnostic assays for the prediction of inflammation and cardiovascular risk in patients with diabetes, infectious disease and cancer. Dr. Vigerust speaks often on the subject of precision medicine and was selected as a TEDx speaker in 2016.

Dr. Vigerust currently maintains an Adjunct Assistant Professor position at Vanderbilt University Medical Center in the Department of Neurological Surgery and a Clinical Assistant Professor position with the University of Maryland, Eastern Shore School of Pharmacy.

Dr. Vigerust’s academic and research interests focus around areas of precision medicine in the treatment of a broad range of disorders that are driven by inflammation including psychiatric and behavioral disorders, pain, neurooncology and cardiovascular disease.

Learn more at StrategicBiosciences.com

Find on Facebook

 

Machine Transcript:

Rhoberta Shaler
I know you're frightened. I know you're anxious. I know this time can be so terribly difficult. And maybe you're house bound with a hijack. Maybe you're having to live 24 seven with the person you'd least like to be confined with. We're going to talk today with a scientist. The real word we're going to talk with David vigorous. is Dr. David vigorous, and we're going to get the real word on what's happening in our world and what you need to know about it. So stay tuned.

Welcome to save your sanity podcast. I'm Dr. Rhoberta. Shaler. Are you living with the chaos confusion and uncertainty that a toxic person loves to create is a partner parent x sibling, child. Other coworker, causing you to second guess yourself. Pack can be crazy making. I'm here to help you save your sanity. So let's get down to it and figure some things out now. Stay tuned.

Welcome to save your sanity if you're joining us for the first time. So glad you found us. And if you're returning, I'm glad you found value and came back. Please feel free to share this podcast with your friends. There are so many people who are isolated or marginalized and think they're the only ones going through this right? So you can be the one who shares things with you. And today we're going to have quite a different episode, because we're not going to be talking only about high jackals. We're going to talk about the hijack of virus that is hijacking our lives right now. And I'm so delighted to welcome you to the program. David,

Dr. David Vigerust
thank you so much for being for letting me be here with you today.

Rhoberta Shaler
Well, it's exciting to me to have the real word from the scientific community. I want everybody to know. This is Dr. David vigorous. He's the President and Chief Scientific Officer for ZD x help and advanced molecular diagnostics company specializing, get this in solutions for infectious diseases and prevention medicine. And he has so many credentials. He's also maintains an adjunct assistant professor position at Vanderbilt University Medical Center in the department of neurological science surgery, and he's a clinical assistant professor at the University of Maryland, Eastern Shore School of Pharmacy. So you've got the definitive word on what's going on here. How much fear do you think is logical at this time?

Dr. David Vigerust
Well, I mean, there's a lot of people worried about this. This is a significant, a significant pandemic, something we've never experienced before. So, you know, in that, in that regard, people are not sure how to behave, not sure what to do not sure how to take the information that's been provided by our government and our other leaders. So, you know, I've seen a substantial number of people very worried, very scared, unsure of where their places in this current pandemic. So, it's, it's scary for a lot of people, especially those that have, you know, some conditions in mind pre exists them to, you know, to more severe symptoms.

Rhoberta Shaler
Mm hmm. Well, I'm one of those people. So the only thing that's concerning me is what happens when I run out of fresh vegetables and fruit? I'm not sure but I will find a way. But, you know, if we don't have good information, if we don't have reliable information, reliable scientific, factual information, we can go even more fearful. And so tell us what the Real Deal is here. What do you know about the coronavirus? The pandemic? The timing? Tell us what you know, what's the latest word?

Dr. David Vigerust
Well, the timing of this falls there towards the tail end of our respiratory season. Right. So we've got a lot of a lot of uncertain symptoms. So folks are still going through influenza, they're still having colds, that's creating a lot more stress and anxiety because they automatically assume that when they have a cough or sniffle that it's going to be a Corona virus. Corona viruses are not new to humans, we've we've been exposed to them for a significant amount of time. This one, however, is coming from an animal reservoir. And when that happens, that animal is fairly imbalanced with this with this pathogen, and we're very much out of balance with that pathogen with this passage. So it's running through the population very quickly.

Rhoberta Shaler
What does it mean David? To be balanced? With a pathogen,

Dr. David Vigerust
but in nature, you know, viruses are constantly in flux with with a host. And in this case this coronavirus likely came from a bat. And in that bat, it likely did not have any symptomology whatsoever. The virus goes through its lifecycle in the bat passes to another bat passes to another bat, and very rarely causes any symptoms in that animal. And that's partly because it's become balanced or it's in kind of a homeostasis with the host. We're a brand new host. And as such, we don't have natural immunity to it. We don't have any defenses because we've not encountered this virus before. So these viruses tend when they get into a new host, whether it's humans or another animal tend to go very much overboard because there are no checks and balances to control them. And that's what we're experiencing right now is a brand new virus to the human population. It's going through very rapidly it's highly transmissible that's the other issue. issue that we're dealing with is this as this has a very rapid replication. And as such, it's very easy to spread through via through droplets, through coughs, through surface contact. So entirely new new experience for many people, although we go through these kinds of epidemics very frequently, we just forget.

Rhoberta Shaler
Yes, and we forget that. We respond differently each time. Like I've heard some people comparing it to the eight shown our h1 in one virus that was what was previously and we didn't have shut down. We didn't have this level of fear. We had concern. We had information, but it didn't feel so personal. What do you think made that difference?

Dr. David Vigerust
I think we've become accustomed to influences not being too terribly problem problematic or troublesome. Even though we told people this is a brand new influenza virus. It's not been encountered. by humans before that, that 2009 outbreak infected 60 million people and caused the death of almost 300,000 people. You know that we sort of went about our business thinking, well, it's just the flu. You know, we get flu all the time. It's not a big deal. Very few people had ever had ever heard of coronavirus. Even though every year when we have a cold, or you know, cold like symptoms, coronavirus is likely one of the primary suspects. But those four that had been with us for the last 60 years or so are very much imbalanced with us. They don't cause us too much, too much illness. So I think the big difference here is that we're accustomed to sort of hearing about flu every year and sort of just taking it out of the, you know, out of our mind as a dangerous organism. And this is something brand new, so it's creating a lot more mystery. It's creating a lot more fear about the unknown.

Rhoberta Shaler
This coronavirus And the h1 in one virus, do they have a did they have a similar rate of replication.

Dr. David Vigerust
They're both fairly fairly rapid replicating viruses, the difference is going to be how easily they can transmit from one person to another. This virus seems to be very good at translating from person to person flew that particular variant of flu, transmitted easily among people, but it wasn't quite as fast or as efficient as this Corona viruses.

Rhoberta Shaler
And how about staying on surfaces and remaining alive were they similar in that record?

Dr. David Vigerust
flu doesn't have quite as long quite as much longevity on surfaces. These viruses have an envelope so they have a like a fatty envelope around them. That makes them susceptible to environmental conditions, whether it's heat or detergents or soaps. This virus seems to be a little more stable on surfaces, especially things like plastics and stainless steel. It doesn't have a very long way. lifespan on not lifespan, but then have a very long viability on cardboard and those kinds of things that are more porous and might draw some of the moisture out of them. So, you know, it's similar in many respects, you know, you want to try to wipe surfaces down even with the flu, because those droplets are are laden with virus.

Rhoberta Shaler
Right? Well, I think this is really important information because we are getting conflicting information about surfaces. And, you know, heavens, I may not want to to buy into the billions of dollars that Jeff Bezos makes but my goodness, he's making my life awfully easy these days. So I'm leaving his cardboard outside for three hours before I go near it. And then I put my gloves on and I use my scissors and I open the box outside. Then I throw the box away. Then I come in and wash my gloves and take the items out. Have the thing and then I washed my gloves again. And then, you know, I have antibacterial, and then I feel like I can, I can let that those products sit for a while and there'll be fine. But it's very important to understand that transmission because we get the mail and people could be afraid of getting the mail or getting these packages and we need to be informed about what's real, because there's a lot of scare mongering out there. And then there's this other seemingly incredible side, that seems to give the impression that we as regular humans can somehow direct this virus to tell it how long it's gonna live. And and that kind of information is really not helpful to us. I'm really sorry to see Dr. vote. She's seemingly getting more and more exhausted looking, of course and every appearance that he has, but oh, we need him and we need people like you. So I want to remind everybody I'm talking to Dr. David vigorous. He is the person in the know about all of this. As I said earlier, he is a Chief Scientific Officer at a molecular diagnostic company. And it specializes in infectious diseases and prevention. So we're talking about the real information here. So if somebody stays in and they're doing the precautions, maybe that I, I was talking about, you know, being careful of what you bring into the house. What can they do if they have to go out and they have to procure their groceries, what is the best protocol and your, your idea,

Dr. David Vigerust
being very, very cognizant of how close people are to you. Again, just like you're being very cautious about picking up boxes, you know, wash your hands frequently. If Have sanitizer using frequently while you're going to the store to wipe down any surfaces that your hands are touching, like the carts or the handles of the baskets. I've just been very watchful about the people around me trying to keep some level of distance, you know, six or 10 feet, watchful for people watchful and very aware of people who are maybe coughing or sneezing, trying to avoid those kinds of things. It's back to the social distancing. It does, it does do a tremendous amount of good to keep some space between us. And just be really aware. I mean, I think maybe we're going to get to be much more aware of our surroundings when, you know, not so long ago, we were very oblivious to what's going on around us now. We're hyper aware.

Rhoberta Shaler
But yes, I'm being aware of the physics of the whole thing. I mean, if a droplet comes out of your mouth, the physics of it are it has to drop eventually. So it may never be Realize, of course, some of them do I understand but that social distancing is to give you the opportunity to draw. And that's just a great way to visualize what's going on that you sent me something and it fell down between us because there was enough space for it, which is, of course, one of the reasons they tell us to leave our shoes outside. But is that an important precaution is to change your shoes when you come in and put your clothes in the in the washer?

Dr. David Vigerust
It would be wise, you know, just just to make sure that any potential exposure that you might have had while you were out and about is eliminated, you know, keeping the shoes outside taking the jacket or something off and washing it. If you were around a lot of people shortly. I'm back in any of those kinds of measures where you can distance yourself from the exposures that you may have had his idea, especially for those who might have some risk factors.

Rhoberta Shaler
I was talking with a client the other day, and they were very, very anxious. And they said, You know, I live alone, and I haven't been out of the house, but remembering to wash my hands every 20 minutes is really hard. And I said, What? Why are you washing your hands every 20 minutes? You're, you're in your own environment. I mean, you're in your own ecosystem, you don't have to wash your hands every 20 minutes. I think maybe there are things that are being said, that are not being defined. What would you say about that advice I gave my client?

Dr. David Vigerust
That's exactly right. If they haven't had an exposure, and they've been in their own environment, you know, they're not exposed to anything, you know, other than what they have been around, you know, all day and, you know, night and days and days previous, especially if they haven't been outside. we've encountered a number of folks in our neighborhood who some somewhat similar, right, they've, they've had a significant amount of fear about this so they stay at home and they may have someone who goes to the store and shops for them. And brings those groceries to them. But if they're by themselves, or if they're with their own family and the family has not had any exposure outside, you know, just think thinking about, well, I haven't had an exposure, it's good to be clean, you're washing your hands frequently is never a bad thing. But to be habitual about it, in the absence of the exposure, might be taking things just a little too far and taking it more maybe more literally than then was originally intended.

Rhoberta Shaler
Well, that's where I think we're making a mistake in the public health thing, because we're not defining it or refining it enough to say, but if you haven't been out, if you've been living in your own ecosystem, you haven't brought anything in that you have to be washing off. made. Certainly we all are wise, as you say, to wash your hands frequently. It's just a good idea. But this protocol of every 20 minutes and do this and do that. That's if you come in and yours potential You brought something with you. So we want to allay people's fears that if they're staying home, they don't have to be washing their hands every 20 minutes. So important. So why do you think this coronavirus is is coming to the attention as a pandemic? When previously we have not even had this kind of coverage for H one n one or other things that are 300,000 jets is nothing to sneeze at no pun intended. But, you know, we're not approaching that right now, but the forecasts are for sure. Why do you think this particular one is causing this huge fear and consuming all of our attention?

Dr. David Vigerust
It's had a lot of media exposure. And the media exposure that first came out of China was very, very graphic, right? You saw people who were being arrestee saw people in full Tyvek suits head to head you know, head to toe toe suits, respirators, it looked like a very scary event that was happening. So you see those kinds of images and you think, well, this, this must be, this must be really bad if we're locking down cities and, and physically quarantining people into the buildings, and then it gets out of that local, gets into the larger country, and then it starts to migrate outside. And then you hear people say, I told you, so I told you this was going to happen. We've had a number of people who have come out said, I've been telling you for years that there was going to be a big pandemic, there was going to be the next apocalypse. So we've had a lot of people coming forth with very scary images, both you know, verbal images and visual things where it looks frightening to people and when it starts to move from country to country, and then you start to highlight the number of deaths and that's the lead in the news is 200 people died last night, you know, 1000 people have Hear You make it into a situation where everyone just has almost constant fear and anxiety about it.

Rhoberta Shaler
What do you think the benefit of that is? Do you think it's making us? Just aware? Do you think it's making us overly cautious? Is it putting us into a fear situation, particularly in our country where we're supposed to believe that someone's going to save us?

Dr. David Vigerust
We're, we're, it's going to be a difficult thing to see how this how this evolves in in the near future here, where I'm in one and I think it's good to be aware that these pandemics can happen and and how they happen. And explaining that in a very, you know, clear way, these pandemics in this particular occurrence and in the h1 in one also were zoonotic infections that came from animals and the way we interact with the environment and those animals that can lead to these kinds of outbreaks. I think we're going to get some better awareness on how to contain it early. And hopefully we get smart enough when someone says we have to pay attention, and we start to pay attention. You know, we've had a lot of people who said, well, it's not that big a deal. I'm not gonna, you know, there was some, some college age kids down in Florida, a number of them got sick because they continue to go to spring break, even though they were told, you know, you should not be around people right now. But I think it's going to be a number of things we're going to get more aware, hopefully, we get a little smarter about listening to advice, the right kind of advice, and we'd become a little more aware. And, you know, the, the benefit of this and a lot of a lot of cases I've noticed here in our neighborhood is families are walking together and they're interacting more so it's bringing the family back together a little bit, right. They're all they're all in little pockets.

Rhoberta Shaler
I think that's great. You know, as I said earlier, I just did my last podcast on housebound with a hijab Call me if you're you're with someone who's verbally, emotionally physically sexually abusive. This is a really, really hard time to say stay home because there you are. So, in my last podcast, I gave people 10 basic truths that you have to accept if you're in that situation, because you can't poke high jackals and hope anything good is going to happen. But we are also seeing a rise in the number of domestic violence cases. Because we have when we have a raised anxiety levels, raise stress levels, we have people who are already living in chronic stress, maybe with someone who's emotionally abusive. And so everybody's angry. Everybody feels powerless in the face of a pandemic. And so that level of unnamed powerlessness can come into blaming behavior. It's everybody's dancing on everybody's last nerve, aren't they? Yes, they are. Yeah, yeah. It's really good. So I want to ask a question about this balancing in the, you know, if you take the bat situation and and, you know, we all have things that live on us live with us live within us, that don't bother us, they're just kind of part of the hosting process and, and they they pass and move on. And we didn't even know what really happened. But in the research world, David, do they actually have researched things that would have previously focused on that bat and the possibility of what is in balance for them being out of balance for humans and what we might do about it? Or is this a wake up call?

Dr. David Vigerust
There's there's been research on this in the past, understanding the natural tropism and host of the organism has been an ongoing, you know, body of work, where where we've not quite learned a lesson yet is an investment particular case and it happens around the world. I'm not necessarily picking on China, but that's where this that's where this came from. Around the world, there were occasions when people will capture wild animals and their food source. So in China, there are these wet markets. And there are a number of different species of animals that are all Co. co ko house together. And that allows for this recombination, this movement back and forth of viruses from one animal to another one that may not be the natural host but supports replication. And then we introduce ourselves in the middle of that. That's happened countless times. And, you know, so we've, we've understood that from a research perspective for a number of years, going back maybe as far back as the 1918 flu outbreak, we knew that these kinds of things happen so for 100 years, we knew that organisms can come from wildlife can come into us and serve as as a as a brand new we serve as a brand new host So we've known about it, it's not a new thing, but we need to be more aware about it. And just a couple of days ago, I saw that China has actually outlawed any wild meat consumption. So they're trying now after many, many years of, of counsel that that's not a good idea. And even in the rest of the world, Africa has kind of a similar sort of situation. bushmeat is common. We don't understand all the organisms that exist and those in those wildlife are in that environment. So it's been around, but I think we're starting to get a little bit more acuity to have to pay attention to what we're doing a little bit more and how we're, you know, cohousing, these animals together.

Rhoberta Shaler
Yes, I think that's a very real and solvable problem, right. There's, once you recognize this is not a good idea. You can simply stop doing it. But for other situations, I mean, that was not that the case. I wondered if there's Some kind of similarity between the fact that we never used to hear about Lyme disease. And then people were having symptoms after symptoms, and we were attributing it to other things. And then in the last 20 years, we seem to have become wise to the potential for Lyme disease. Is there some similarity in that?

Dr. David Vigerust
There will be, I think, as we've seen more of these zoonotic infections Come out, come out of, you know, different ecosystems, we get a little, little bit more aware of it, you know, people, I think, shy away from some of the science and they don't pay attention and listen and build upon each one of those occurrences. And with Lyme disease, it took, like you say it took 20 years took 30 years to realize that it wasn't just arthritis. It was an infection that elicited the arthritis, right? So he slowly we, I think, slowly getting there. This is a kind of event that might help accelerate that. That uptake of information

Rhoberta Shaler
and awareness like, oh, there are other causes. You know, in my life, I've been very fortunate because I was raised by near my godparents who were very interested in health. And they, they were in their mid 50s when I was born. So they were interested in alternative medicine and they raised their own vegetables organically and all of that. So I've always had this great interest and I used to own a, a health and yoga retreat center on Vancouver Island in Canada. So I've always had this great interest. And so when I follow these things, and I noticed that my clients, which are people who have been either raised by or in a relationship with toxic people, those with diagnosed or undiagnosed personality disorders, we see a much greater incidence of autoimmune situations because they're living in this chronic stress and anxiety all the time there. If we want to use As a metaphor, they're always inflamed. Right? So so there are things going on that we can do about that. Aside from the fact that we wake up and say, your body is having a response to something that is not a pathogen, it is responding to something that is in your environment, and it's entirely human. And, and yes, it doesn't happen to everybody. But, you know, I was interested in the research, Gabor Ma Tei. I don't know if you know Dr. Ma Tei in Canada, but he did some excessive research and what he learned in one of his studies is small study there are significant he learned that following women for nine years, I think it was nine years and I could be wrong, but he followed them and found that women who lived with chronic stress and anxiety You know, I'm extrapolating it to my heart. tackles, but it could be any chronic stress and anxiety. We're nine times more likely to develop breast cancer. Right? chronic stress and anxiety. Now we've seen my anecdotal observation. I remember when probably 30 years ago I started in my practice seeing people with this unnamed aches and pains and when you touch their skin that hurt, and there was nothing supposedly wrong with the skin or the underlying tissue, and see that morphed into an understanding of epstein barr, Fibromyalgia things that had a name. And in the beginning, it was all in your head. Right? Then people were telling you if you know if you just had less stress and anxiety, but they didn't look at the causes of the stress and anxiety. So this kind of historical perspective of If it shows up, and then we say, Oh, it's nothing or it's your fault or your you're doing things wrongly, and then we find out No, actually there are things in the environment, whether or not they're human or, or otherwise, that are actually exacerbating these things. And it's very much as a time thing, it seems before people are willing to entertain the idea that there may be a cause and effect. What do you think?

Dr. David Vigerust
I agree, yeah, it does take time for for that, that idea to evolve and for people to come to realize that there is an underlying precipitate precipitator of this right. So I spend a lot of time in inflammation as well. So I can see that inflammation can come from an external source like a microbe or come from an internal source. I've just been chronically stressed and stressed and tired and you know, just not having a really good, healthy, happy foundation.

Rhoberta Shaler
So some things, some things suppressing your immune system. And and when you're in happy and when you're in anxiety and when your shoulders are up around your ear lobes and you're hyper vigilant in your over producing fight or flight hormones and things, you know, it's a system, something's going to happen.

Dr. David Vigerust
Right. Now there has to be a response to all that.

Rhoberta Shaler
Yeah. So what would you say? I know, we could talk for a very long time, but what would you say is our best preparation for this pandemic? And for any future? What changes do we need to make?

Dr. David Vigerust
I think we need to be more aware of the kinds of interactions we have with the environment and identify things like this that have come from an animal source environmental source, this happens frequently. And we seem to have a very short term memory when it when it happens. We need to More into a perspective that if we keep the same behaviors, we're going to have the same sorts of events occurring with us. So if we can start to understand better how the ecology of pathogens and in how they interact with us, and the kinds of behaviors that we elicit to make those kinds of things happen, we can probably be better prepared in the future, you know, but the Chinese are doing a good job by by eliminating these markets because we know that they are a definite source. The same sort of conversations have happened elsewhere in Asia and in Africa and South America and all over the world. That's just the nature of culture sometimes is you eat what you catch you eat, what you find you eat, what's available, but enter into into entering into those ecosystems. We have to understand the consequences of doing that, you know, we don't sometimes think about what might happen to us when we enter into that new environment.

Rhoberta Shaler
I remember when I went to the market in Bangkok, And I could not believe what my eyes saw my nose smelled. I could not believe it. Some of it was lovely. Some of it was far less than lovely. And some of it was downright scary. And you're selling those things. How long have they been there? They're still alive. How long have they been dead? I mean, this just like amazing but of course, this like me going into a culture that has a different water system. I'm I am going to be terribly susceptible to it and other people are used to it. You know, it's become balanced as you say within though, and so this is vital information. Thank you so much for sharing this with us.

Dr. David Vigerust
Thank you for having me. Appreciate it.

Rhoberta Shaler
My guest is Dr. David vigorous. And he has great information for you. I'm going to put his website in the show notes because you will need to know how to spell it. I will tell you what it is right. Now for those of you who are sitting at your computer, it is sis strategic bio sciences.com and that's s wide Tr ATGIC bio sciences plural.com. And it'll be in the show notes. You're also going to be able to hear us on Facebook on Facebook Live and YouTube live today. And so look at the YouTube channel, my YouTube channel for relationship help, you will find another conversation that Dr. Biggers and I will have. In the meantime, take really good care of yourself because you matter and stay safe. This is a very important thing for you to do. Thank you for joining me on the save your sanity podcast today. I hope you've had some new insights, some ideas and strategies to help you gain clarity and confidence for moving forward toward greater emotional health and safety. You deserve that and so to your children. If you found value here and would like to support this podcast with $1 of five each month, please do so@patreon.com slash save your sanity. Learn more about how to work with me by a video conference, join my optimized circles, or subscribe to this podcast on my YouTube channel at my website, transforming relationship calm talk soon

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